Lindsay Marie Morris

Harper Alexander had little experience with Italian food before traveling to Italy and meeting his wife Eva Santaguida, who is from Calabria. But today, as co-founder of the Pasta Grammar YouTube channel and co-author of The Italian Family Kitchen: Authentic Recipes That Celebrate Homestyle Italian Cooking, he's doing his part to educate the masses about the food and culture that's inspired him. 

I sat down with Harper and Eva to discuss their new cookbook, why and how they started Pasta Grammar, what goes into recipe writing, the biggest misconceptions about Italian food, which Sicilian recipe is their favorite, and more. 

 

 

How and why did you start Pasta Grammar?

Harper: We started shortly after we got married and right as COVID hit. It was one of those COVID hobbies that a lot of people did during the pandemic when they weren't working.

 

I'd been to Italy a few times to visit Eva when we were dating, but food wasn't something I deeply cared about or knew very much about. And so, at first, I made these videos joking around with her because she was new to America and getting her reactions to American food, whether it's Domino's Pizza or the prices at Whole Foods, whatever. At the end of every video, Eva would cook to show how she would do things. And more and more people started asking for recipes. As we did more of these videos, I realized something I didn't even know when I married her: "Oh, you're a really amazing cook, and Italian food is very different from what I thought." and "I really like it, and I want to know more about it."

 

For me, it was an evolution of not really understanding what I had at home, which was a very talented cook and discovering this whole world of Italian food.

 

Behind the scenes of a Pasta Grammar video.

What goes into writing your recipes?

Harper: As the native English speaker, it is always kind of a fun challenge because part of my job is translating what Eva does, which is a very home-cooked Italian style. Nobody measures anything. You ask any Italian cook how much cheese they use. And they'll look at you. You're absolutely crazy for even asking such a silly question. But of course, when you publish recipes for people unfamiliar with that kind of food or write a cookbook, you have to translate something she does intuitively into a recipe. So we work very closely together when we're developing recipes. And so obviously, she's doing the cooking and coming up with the food, but then I'm measuring, seeing how much cheese she actually used, and then translating that into a recipe.

 

Eva: This is also very useful because if I write the recipe, I write from my point of view, whereas Harper's recipes are very detail-oriented. He writes for every kind of home cook.

 

What are common misconceptions about Italian cooking?

Eva: What I discovered coming here is that people think we love garlic. Yes, we do love garlic in Italy, but we don't love garlic as much as Americans think. In Italian food, the taste of garlic is very, very mild. Even if we cook with a lot of garlic, we usually remove it or let it cook for such a long time that it becomes completely delicate.

 

Harper: Another big misconception that a lot of people have is that Italian food even exists because Italy is so regionalized. When people visit Italy, they think, "I'm in Italy. I am going to get good pizza at every restaurant."

 

You sometimes need to go to a specific town to get a dish made properly. Don't go to Sicily and order a carbonara. It's not the place for that.

 

Our second-highest viewership on our channel is Italians. They watch the channel to learn about food in other regions they don't even know about. Someone from Naples might not even know what they eat in Milan. So, a lot of people need to disabuse themselves of the idea that there is Italian food. 

 

Which kitchen skill should everyone master?

Eva: The first thing people should understand is that you need to put salt in the food and taste it. You need to taste everything you cook to understand if you made a mistake and if it actually needs more salt or spices.

 

Harper: Unless it's a very specific baking thing where you kind of need some specific chemistry, we never give an amount of salt to any recipe. It's always to taste because that's a really important skill. When you see a recipe that says "a half teaspoon of salt," it is like, "Well, what kind of salt are you using? Some salts are saltier than others. Are you using professional Diamond Crystal salt?" 

One of our biggest pet peeves is recipes that give specific salt measurements. You really need to learn from every step. Also, with pasta, people are used to following the package instructions, where you just put a pinch of salt into the water. But people don't understand that you need to actually taste the pasta while it's boiling and make sure that it's properly salted even before you incorporate it into the sauce. So, we put all of that in the cookbook because I know, as someone who knew nothing about cooking before I met Eva, my approach to salt was always, "I just have to put a pinch of salt in my dish. It's just a mandatory thing." But I never tasted it and never added nearly enough to make the ingredients really stand out.

 

You feature several Sicilian recipes in your cookbook. Which is your favorite?

Eva: One of my favorite recipes in the cookbook is pasta alla Norma. 

Harper: Pasta alla Norma probably takes the cake because we consider it to be the perfect pasta dish. When we talk privately about trying a new pasta, our conversation always ends with, "Well, it was good, but is it pasta alla Norma good?" On an objective level, it's just kind of the perfect pasta, and that's why it's actually on the cover of the book.

It is just the balance of flavors. It's a tomato sauce in which you incorporate some of the oil you use to cook the eggplant. The combination of eggplant, tomatoes, ricotta salata (dried grated ricotta), basil, and olive oil just sums up that southern Italian flavor.

 

Why is incorporating the historical and cultural context of recipes important to you?

Eva: This is very important because if you understand the history of a dish, you can appreciate the dish by itself. A lot of people think that we Italians don't like to change our recipes. That's not true because what we have today is just the evolution of what we've discovered through tradition.

So knowing why, for example, they use these ingredients more than others makes sense in the dish. For example, the food of Venice: In the Veneto region, they use a lot of spices like cinnamon and cloves. Venice was one of the main cities during the medieval age that had the availability of all these spices. So they started to use them, and what we have now are spiced dishes that you don't have in other regions. Knowing the history gives the food a new meaning.

 

Harper: I have a dish that is tremendously important to me, which is just a really crappy grilled cheese on white bread, like Kraft American cheese dipped in Campbell's tomato soup. It's not that the food is particularly good, but it brings back memories that I had as a kid out in the snow in Maine. You would come back in from the cold and have this hot grilled cheese and tomato soup. So, the story informs how we eat and changes how the food tastes. I don't think food is ever objective. Those stories matter a lot.

 

You introduce people to experiences on tours. Tell us about them.

Harper: We do a couple of different tours. The one we started doing years ago is a more traditional tour through Southern Italy. We start in Naples and go all the way down through Calabria and into Sicily. What makes it unusual is that we wanted to make a tour that took people off the beaten touristy track. I'd actually visited Italy before I met Eva, so I thought I had the place figured out.

 

But then, when I started traveling with a local, she would take me to the places she wanted to go, and it was a completely different experience. So when we started that tour, the idea was to share a lot of those experiences that most tourists would never have, but in a way where it was accessible to someone who doesn't speak the language and doesn't even know about these places or foods to try or things to see.

The second one that we do is expanding off of that idea. We do something called the Week in Dasà, which is where a group of people come to Eva's small village in Calabria and spend a week living there with us. We cook together, we eat together, and we party together Calabria-style. It's a project that we're really proud of, something that's very unusual. People come to a place where there's never been any tourism, and they get the real deal of what it's like living in a small Calabrian village.

 

What experience do you hope people take away from Pasta Grammar?

Eva: What I see right now is that a lot of people treat food like something just to put in the stomach. It doesn't matter where you are or where you are eating. This is very bad because it's a moment that you need to use to take care of yourself and of the people that you actually love. So I hope they understand spending more time in the kitchen is a very important time of your life.

 

Harper: I went from being someone used to convenience food culture where I would say, "I'm busy. I'll just grab a sandwich or get takeout." And now I've gotten to the point where I can't imagine not spending time every night cooking food and eating together. It's something that is very important. And I didn't realize how important it was, and now I can't imagine going back.

 

 

 

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My Sicilian grandmother always tossed a bay leaf or two into her tomato sauce, and my mother does as well. But lately, I've found myself forgetting to add the bay leaf and wondering what purpose it really serves. 

So, I was intrigued to find an article in the International Journal of Gastronomy and Food Science that addressed this very question. 

I reached out to its author, Charles Spence, an experimental psychology professor at Oxford University and the author of Gastrophysics: The New Science of Eating, to discuss bay leaves, why they spark such debate, and how his own bay leaf use has changed since his research.

 

  

Why did you choose to research bay leaves?

It was initially a debate with my brother, who's a chef in Oxford, about what they do or what they add. I've got other papers on cinnamon and coriander. So, I am interested in the historical introduction and disappearance of different herbs and spices around the world over the decades, centuries, and millennia. What, exactly, are they doing in our food? 

I've got a verdant bay tree just outside the window here, so I've got thousands of bay leaves, but for others, they can be extra expensive to purchase. My brother is convinced bay leaves add something, and I am, too. I always stick them in whatever I'm cooking. But what, exactly, does it add? 

It's a curious question. It got me searching through the literature, and that brought up the fact that many chefs and others have a big debate about whether bay leaves have a taste/flavor or not. It's interesting to have an ingredient that could be reasonably expensive and for which lots of people don't know why they're using it. 

 

Tell us about the work you do.

As a psychologist, I've always been interested in the senses and how they interact with and apply to the real world. For the first 15 years, I mostly worked on technology, talking window screens, mobile phones, car warning signals, and that kind of stuff. Then, Unilever funded me to help with their fruit teas. I'd never done anything on flavor at all, but they were paying the bill, so I said, "Okay, I'll do some experiments on that."

Suddenly, it got interesting. Flavors are probably the most multisensory thing we experience. They engage all our senses, but flavor is something that psychologists typically don't study. 

Here in Oxford, we'd do experiments on how the senses contribute to flavor and how we can make things sweeter by coloring them pink or red or adding certain scents. But my experience was that the food company chefs could never make anything very exciting from the science.

Then, I was introduced to the world's top chef, Heston Blumenthal, and suddenly started doing experiments around the "sounds of the sea," which thereafter led to one of his most famous dishes. Diners wear headphones, and they hear the sounds of the sea while they eat sashimi plated to look like the seashore.

That got me more work in food, working with chefs, mixologists, and baristas rather than food companies. These latter creatives turned out to be very interested in trying to apply science and psychology to food as a multisensory object, always doing so in ways that ask how people today perceive these things and what they mean. 

Over the years, I've had a few interdisciplinary grants with anthropologists, historians, art historians, philosophers, and a wide range of disciplines. And I guess through some of those workshops, which have been on other things like what aesthetics is, I keep coming up against the anthropologists who say, "You psychologists. When you try to understand sensation or flavor, you don't seem to understand the importance of culture and history."

I've come around to starting to be interested not just in how we perceive things but also in how we have perceived things in the past. Tracing the history of herbs, spices, and fruits allows me to do so. 

Maybe bay is not an expensive or luxurious spice in the same way that saffron is. It's a ubiquitous spice or herb in this part of the world. I'm curious about the history of flavor and psychological history, which lets me better understand how we perceive from a broader social, historical, and cultural perspective. 

 

What have you found interesting about the bay leaf?

Bay is the only herb I have encountered so far where some people say it tastes like nothing and don't know why they use it. That doesn't happen anywhere else, and this debate has even made it into the culinary and trade press; there's this debate going on about what bay is doing.

It could be that a third of people are unable to smell one of the chemical compounds, or it could be that it doesn't really have a perceptible flavor. It just does something to the flavor of everything else. It's like a flavor enhancer. I'm interested in other things like kokumi, the next thing after umami, or monosodium glutamate (MSG). Kokumi has no taste when you add it to food. But when it's added to things that have umami (e.g., mushrooms and Parmesan), it amplifies the other taste sensations. 

Maybe bay leaves are doing that. So, is this difference genetic in what we can smell? Some people can, some can't. What the bay leaf does for everything else is interesting. 

Maybe some people who say it doesn't do anything are focusing on what it smells like itself. They think it doesn't smell like anything; therefore, they think it does nothing. Others say, "I always add it to my cooking because of the end result and total flavor." 

It may also depend on where you get your bay from, what part of the season it was grown in, whether it's California Bay or Laurel, how it's been stored, and whether it's been frozen, dried, or fresh.

What's also interesting about bay to me is the question of whether dry or fresh leaves are better. For most things, you think fresh is better than dried. And yet various people say, "No, dried bay is better than fresh."

So, which is right? How do you answer that when the thing itself doesn't taste very good? 

I've been going to my tree here, picking them, and putting them in boiling water for a while, which, again, may not be the right thing to do. Maybe it needs fat to release all of what it can contribute to a dish.

I also have been putting them in a cup of bay leaf tea and then trying to almost do the blind taste test on myself with a cup of hot water that has bay leaves steeped in it and another one that's just hot water. Can I discriminate?  I haven't done the official taste test because it's a bit too messy and time-consuming. But yeah, there is something there, a curious sensation.

 

How did your bay leaf use change as you were researching the topic?

Well, I never had bay leaf tea before, and then, through the research, I now think differently about picking them. Before, I just picked them whenever the bowl of dried ones ran out, and now I think there's no point in doing that just yet; I should wait till the end of the year.

I switch between the dried and the fresh, trying to decide which is better. Before writing the article, I probably would've only used the dried ones. But now I'm thinking back and forth. They say it makes a difference.  

 

What do you hope people will take away from your bay leaf research?

My hope is that people will come away thinking, "Well, yeah, now that you mention it, I do wonder why I do that. Why do we add our herbs and spices to our food?"

I think there's a whole world that's not really been studied much. A few food historians are doing research on spices, but not anything from the psychology or sensory angle. Growing awareness and appreciation, perhaps particularly in the case of herbs, might be advantageous moving forward. These sorts of herbs can have interesting effects on taste and flavor and also maybe interesting impacts on our ability to absorb other nutrients.

Although I'm not sure bay necessarily serves that function, it is undoubtedly a culinary curiosity that I think gets people interested and thinking this is much more fascinating.  

 

 

 

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